How does that excuse your posting it?

Oh BTW: I wrote Pain and Depression when I was about 13.

Sorry DA... I don't even LISTEN to Nine Inch Nails... I'm a hip-hop head DumbAss.

The assumption that I'm in some kind of tizzy over this discussion, leading me to fling "personal insults" heedlessly in any direction, is utterly preposterous. If I have 'personally insulted' you (by which you must mean "you are as foolish as you seem" from two comments ago) it's because I like personal insults of that sort and use them on everyone. Concerning your point 1., you're right. I was on my way to delete that comment when I saw yours. As far as your point 2., what supreme stupidity. If you were to ask me (which you haven't) what I find simplistic and trite about your world-view, one of my first answers would be your idea that the alternative to your system of beliefs is some kind of (inevitably self-destructive) hedonism "based [solely] on the desires of the flesh." No, wait, you didn't say that; you just said that if you didn't have your system of beliefs, you'd choose hedonistic gluttony, which is doubly idiotic. You ask, "Why are you so caught up on mine?" Mostly because it's only slightly less boring than the Irigaray I'm supposed to be reading. You ask, "What is it that you believe in?" That ninety-nine percent of philosophical/religious discussions really have no more bearing on my life than a) I'm still young enough to find them mildly entertaining, and b) there's the very real possibility of my being beaten to death or otherwise horribly killed by some true believer in something or other, but not enough for me to waste my time worrying about. The possibility of an afterlife doesn't make me any more or less inclined to be generally nice to other people, nor does Xeno's paradox prevent me from suddenly drawing my wife down onto the couch for a quick midafternoon screw.

I guess that I left knot in the singular for the internal rhyme, but it could flow better your way; truth be told I was hung up on that line trying to decide which way to leave it. I also like your idea for the truth- you part. However, there is always victory, always a winner and a loser in every situation. Someone has to come out on top, even if it's only by a fraction of a second, a fraction of a percentage point, or one more kill on the field. Oh yeah, and I definitely should have used desert instead of jungle.

Zodie, Would you please relax? Why do you find it so difficult to refrain from personal insults? 1. When did I say that Christianity (I don't think I ever mentioned Christianity) appealed to me BECAUSE it teaches denial of worldly pleasures? 2. I said that if I did not have a soul and were left on my own to "artifically" construct a system of beliefs I would construct a system based soley on the desires of the flesh. But I do have a soul and that soul demands to be recognized and is at odds with the desires of the flesh. None of this is a matter of choice...it's just the way it is. What's the big deal? This is just the way I see it. We all have assumptions about the world, the existance of souls, and human nature. Why are you so caught up on mine? What is it that you believe in?

Once again, you've got cause and effect ten different kinds of backwards. You've essentially said: 1. Christianity appeals to me because it teaches denial of worldly pleasure, which I think should be denied... 2. ...although if it were up to me I'd "create a religion based on the pursuit of worldly pleasure" - 3. which is why I need religion. I'd just bollocks it up otherwise (cf. "Shame" and "Joseph, Joseph" by Joe-joe)... 4. ...though the desire to deny oneself pleasure and live, I don't know, "purely" or something is the natural tendency of the human soul. 5. How do we know this? Because the religion I subscribe to says so. What a bunch of crap assumptions. Please in the future do not assume anything about MY human nature or soul or whatever, which despite ten years of Catholic school and the fact of my being raised in an essentially evangelical and puritanical country says nothing about the inherent evil of worldly pleasure. Joe-joe: Your system is crap too, Zodie. zodiac: No. Probably not. Joe-joe: [some random unrelated thing.]

Yeah, that too!

I raised the issue of pleasure in connection with your assertion that I hold the beliefs I hold becuase of the "challenge" it presents. No, if I believed in nothing, if I did not have a soul that truely spoke to me, but consciously felt the need to attach myself to "something", that something would be an affirmation not a denial of my flesh and blood desires. It would be 100% pleasure based. However, I do have a soul and it does speak to me. It distingusies between good and evil and it is often at odds with my conscious desires. It's a tough way to live..lots of guilt and anguish..but it is how I do see the world. "I don't think it's artificial because it can't be "captured in a test tube". I think it's artificial because there are no verification or falsification conditions for it." Your distinction escapes me.

I raised the issue of pleasure in connection with your assertion that I hold the beliefs I hold becuase of the "challenge" it presents. No, if I believed in nothing, if I did not have a soul that truely spoke to me, but consciously felt the need to attach myself to "something", that something would be an affirmation not a denial of my flesh and blood desires. It would be 100% pleasure based. However, I do have a soul and it does speak to me. It distingusies between good and evil and it is often at odds with my conscious desires. It's a tough way to live..lots of guilt and anguish..but it is how I do see the world. "I don't think it's artificial because it can't be "captured in a test tube". I think it's artificial because there are no verification or falsification conditions for it." Your distinction escapes me.

Zodie, I know it's difficult for you to put 2 and 2 together but I'll try: Quote from Dark Angel: "You seem determined to hold a theory which is demonstrably buncombe because it poses a "deeper challenge". You think that artificially imposing a grand cosmic structure on your life is a worthwhile thing to do". Interpretation: Darky says that my "theory" is concocted for the sake of a challenge that I seek. My response: If I were to "impose" an "artificial" (knowlingly false and without merit) grand cosmic scheme upon myself it certainly would not resemble the set of beliefs I currently hold. On the contrary, I would create a religion based on the pursuit of pure worldy pleasure...kinda like the religion working today through popular American Culture.

It's not shame that leads you back to God after you've sinned. It's a fear that he's going to burn your ass if you don't.

'I think it's artificial because there are no verification or falsification conditions for it' you can not conceive of the existence of anything that can not be verified/ falsified. But all scientific theory is predicated on assumptions that can not be validated. The basic unit of matter is the atom. Can that be proved to exist. Nope what can be tested is that accepting the presence of an atom relationships between atoms will create certain outcomes.